Burger King Stores Promotes “Global Warming Is Baloney” Message

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by Michael dEstries June 1, 2009
Categories: .

burgerking

Man, what’s with all the Burger King gossip recently?

At two Memphis, Tennessee Burger King locations last week, the words “Global Warming Is Baloney” appeared on signs outside the stores. Naturally, people were a bit confused as to why the chain was promoting such a view. As green blog Twilight Earth noted, repeated calls to the franchise were stonewalled for an explanation. At one point, a Burger King employee confirmed that the language on the sign was in fact the view represented by Burger King International.

Since then, Burger King has fired back saying that the two stores with the signs were out of line. From their statement:

This statement [“Global Warming is baloney”] does not reflect a Burger King Corp. (BKC) opinion or view. The two restaurants where these signs appeared are independently owned and operated and were not authorized to display this statement. The signs have since been removed. BKC believes in operating as a socially responsible company and is committed to making a positive impact in the communities where it lives and works.

Whoops! We’re pretty sure that Burger King is less than enthused with the growing social awareness of factory farming and its environmental impact, but the last thing they want is owners expressing ill-informed opinions on their behalf. Nice move, Memphis.

More details here.


Categories: .

About Michael dEstries

Michael has been blogging since 2005 on issues such as sustainability, renewable energy, philanthropy, and healthy living. He regularly contributes to a slew of publications, as well as consulting with companies looking to make an impact using the web and social media. He lives in Ithaca, NY with his family on an apple farm.

View all posts by Michael dEstries →
  • Ashley

    Ohhhh you gotta love the unintended irony of calling global warming ‘baloney’, when yes, it is in fact caused by bologna!

  • Ben Dunham

    Maybe, the message reflects the fact that the temperature trend in Tennessee has been a minus .04 degrees F. per decade since 1895. This past year temperatures have been well below the average for the 20th century.

  • John Melone

    Im sorry not trying to start a debate on your obvious “green” site but do people not pay attention to things like this. Were people who initially signed on to global warming back in the 90′s are now skeptics of it. Check out this good little article

    http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=927B9303-802A-23AD-494B-DCCB00B51A12

  • Steve- Michigan

    We drove through TN ice on our way south in Feb.to Escape the worst winter here in decades- right through those ice-Storms in Kentucky- to find record freezing temps in Florida (18F!). BK has a keen eye for the obvious, I just pray they’re wrong and those hippies are right for once!

  • Richard

    John’s link is an interesting read but a bunch of nerdy paleoclimatologists and geochemists won’t carry much weight with Greenies. Aren’t their interests a little more ideological, like saving the world by buying the organic cat-chow at the top of this page for their dozen rescued cats?

    Next time could you quote someone more convincing like Al Gore or Leonardo DiCaprio or the United Nations when debunking global warming?!

  • John Melone

    Thanks Rich, i know; but who better to tell the tale of earths climate then these nerdy climatologist with all their impressive acronyms that follow their names. I have no problem with being green and clean and support it, but when they start to try to initiate these cap and trade agreements and start all these new taxes in the name of saving the world, thats where i cry fowl. Heres another good story about the heartland institute and former supporters of global warming.

    http://www.smallgovtimes.com/2009/05/paddling-furiously-against-the-tide-of-climate-change/

  • John Melone

    Id also like to add one more thing.
    A lot of people have their personal identity/morals/who they are, invested into the idea of global warming. For global warming to be proven wrong, would bring a lot of peoples lives to a crashing halt. This is part of the problem, admitting when you are wrong, no one likes to do it, and no one does any more, for serious matters at least. There seems to be lack of accountability in todays society. Thats why some global warming supporters are so tied in with the idea of warming, to admit that maybe its not as bad as once thought, would throw their life and ideals into crisis. Especially when people have built careers around the concept of global warming.
    This is why most of the time warming skeptics are met with child like ridicule and name calling instead of scientific backed evidence that doesn’t come from Al Gore. I have lots of time on my hands and have yet still to be shown anything that proves warming to be true. As i said in my previous post, i have no problem with green and clean and i support it, but it is whats coming from the powers at hand that scares and angers me.

  • Richard

    Right- that’s what I mean- it’s really not about science-
    We all fall along these political lines;

    if you believe in global warming- (I mean
    an catastrophic Al Gore type scenario)
    you probably also believe that the political solutions are good ideas regardless of the problem. Raising taxes on fuel/ corporations/ energy companies/ to subsidize public transport/windmills/ solar panels etc. So they don’t feel the need to investigate the science too deeply

    And in turn most skeptics feel that these are in themselves bad ideas, that economies invariably suffer by the redistribution of wealth from the private to the public sector, and the loss of private mobility. Only the Govt. sees growth. And considering it’s mainly governments (UN) that are pushing this- the science better be solid before we act on it. So right or wrong- I find skeptics can usually go into a lot more scientific detail?

  • Stephanie

    Wow a lot of people who read this blog seem to be global warming skeptics! I don’t think anyone who’s studied climate change and environmental studies can ignore the facts about global warming. The only scientists that don’t “believe” that we are undergoing rapid climate change are the ones employed by companies like Exxon Mobile.

    I’m not surprised that a Burger King would have a sign saying that. There is a huge link between the meat industry (particularly fast food burgers) and environmental destruction including global warming and the destruction of the rain forest to raise cheap beef. The environment is one of my top 2 reasons for began a vegan (along with animal rights).

  • Whoever…

    How can people be so ignorant and ‘zombified’?

    Only pseudo scientists (who are probably on the payroll of oil companies ) and people who prefer to bury their heads in the sand than to see the truth (so they can have an excuse not to change their lifestyle) still claim that global warming isn’t real!!

    There is more than enough data to conclude that this is real and that it’s the result of human activities.
    The majority of REAL scientists have already confirmed it – are they all liars!?

    These are just a few examples of valid data on this issue:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/04/15/eco.birdsclimatechange/index.html

    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/01/21/eco.warmingantarctic/index.html

    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/03/12/irreversible.climate/index.html

    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/eco.climaterefugees/index.html

    http://topics.edition.cnn.com/topics/intergovernmental_panel_on_climate_change

    http://google.nationalgeographic.com/search?site=default_collection&client=default_frontend&proxystylesheet=default_frontend&output=xml_no_dtd&oe=UTF-8&q=climate+change&btnG.x=0&btnG.y=0

    http://www.unep.org/climatechange/

    http://www.unescap.org/mced2000/pacific/background/climate.htm

    Now, these are reliable sources. Or do you also think they are all part of a big conspiracy to make us believe global warming is real?

    Have you by any chance watched any documentaries about this issue? Or are they also a lie?

    Have you ever heard of Tuvalu? Do you know that the population of these islands will soon have to move to other countries due to the rise of sea level? Do you know that they’ve already been experiencing massive floods and that their survival depends on the exodus of the entire people of Tuvalu? Go tell them that global warming is an illusion!!

    What about satellite images of the Arctic showing the decrease of the ice? Or have they all been manipulated as well!?

    Oh, and by the way, you ignorant people, global warming means that earth’s global average temperature will rise but it doesn’t mean that it’ll be warmer everywhere. It means there will be more extreme weather conditions, and so in some places it will actually be colder and in other places it will be hotter. Droughts, floods, storms, hurricanes, etc. will also be more frequent and extreme!!

    Please educate yourselves, do some SERIOUS research and stop being zombies!!

    It’s time for people to think for themselves and not let big corporations do that for them!

    Instead of believing that CEO’s of oil companies are ‘saints’ and that environmentalists are ‘daemons’, maybe you should reflect on who has more to lose if people become aware of the truth!

    If you truly believe global warming is not really happening, then I seriously think you don’t deserve the air you breathe. It’s because of the likes of you that the planet is the way it is right now!!

  • Allen Atkinson

    OK Stephanie- as an ignorant skeptic, I would love to be educated by your scientific understanding of global warming

    Bear in mind that, as you probably know, all scientists IPCC/NAS/GIS etc acknowledge, Co2 cannot directly alter global temperatures to any significant extent.
    A problematic increase requires a system of positive feedback loops that overwhelm the negative ones. This cannot be chalked up on a blackboard like say the Krebs cycle, or Einstein theory of special relativity-

    This requires a set of algorithms that accurately model the entire planet’s atmosphere/ocean/land surface/organisms- (as well as cosmic rays and magnetic fields) and all the interactions between them. Most scientists, if you read their actual studies, are very honest and frustrated about the difficulty of applying hard scientific principles to such inherently chaotic and poorly understood systems. This is borne out by the fact that the last 2 years rapid cooling was not predicted.

    Every person I have heard that is confident the science is settled, also has a very well defined political ideology, which pre-disposes them to the idea of global warming without the need for any real understanding. But you may just be the exception?

  • Richard

    Whoever- did you eat a BK angry burger?
    honestly- this isn’t worth getting that fired up about

    Again, a lot of emotion, political ideology, anecdotal stories. but no science.

    As for your links, you are quite right, I admit I do not consider TV news/journalists/environmental groups as very reliable scientific sources. (call me a cynic!:) If it’s where you’re getting your information, I don’t blame you at being so upset.

    But realize that when you hear from these sources that ‘most scientists believe whatever…” they are usually refering to ‘climatologists’
    This is no different than saying ‘most paranormal investigators believe in ghosts” Climatology did not exist in any real form before global warming groups,
    they believe in it by definition.

    If you are really interested in a more objective view isn’t it best to avoid both politically and industry connected groups?, and I think you will find that most honest scientists aren’t expecting the end of the world

    Again- this list is not the only one out there but check these people out, get in touch with them, ask yourself if they are all ignorant zombies paid off by Exxon mobile- that don’t deserve the air they breathe. (or the Co2 they exhale!:)

    http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=927B9303-802A-23AD-494B-DCCB00B51A12

  • Richard

    OK last bit!

    I was complaining that believers never get into any science so here’s just one thing I wanted to correct from Whoever

    “Droughts, floods, storms, hurricanes, etc. will also be more frequent and extreme!!”

    This is something you can check with the IPCC- don’t take my word for it- a lot of the science gets complicated but this one is fairly well understood as follows:

    All energy for weather systems originates from the uneven heating of the Earth by the sun and the coriolis effect/rotation that mixes the cold air nearer the poles with warm air from nearer the equator.

    Global warming would cause disproportionately more heating at the poles- thus creating less of the temp. imbalance that drives storms.

    You may find, because of altered patterns, a certain area that gets more storms than it used to, but the Earth would see less violent weather overall.

    Consider that the strongest known storms in our solar system are on places like Jupiter where storms larger than Earth rage for years with several 100′s of mph of wind even though that planet is far colder- i.e. it is the imbalance- not the heat itself.

  • http://www.veganjapan.net herwin

    “Global warming would cause disproportionately more heating at the poles- thus creating less of the temp. imbalance that drives storms.”
    now why would global warming cause DISPROPORTIONALY more heating at the Poles ?
    Nutshell, global warming has its effect on the oceans and its currents, such as the warm water in the tropics get warmer and as we all know its this that creates storms and other undesired effects.
    Jupiter is far away, you should go and talk to folks living in mountain villages near gletsers. They will tell you whats happening.

  • Richard (the ignorant zombie!)

    now why would global warming cause DISPROPORTIONALY more heating at the Poles ?

    Good question my friend!!
    Glad to hear you are a fellow skeptic Herwin! way to get with the winning team already!

    this isn’t my theory- and I don’t believe it, but it is part of the generally accepted Global warming theory-here’s just one link but feel free to find your own.

    Quote “This is consistent with most climate models, which predict disproportionate warming at the poles ”
    http://www.oneworldjourneys.com/climate/html/eco/arctic.html

    (I really shouldn’t be helping the faithful with their side of the argument!- the Big Oil CEOs that are paying me are going to have my legs broke for this:)

    Again, it’s key to understand that storms are caused by temp. contrast, not warmth itself. this is not a controversial theory, it is an unambigeous scientific observation.
    One of those things (unlike prayer, ESP or global warming) you can actually test, verify and utilize for accurate outcome prediction- like spring storms- I kid you not!

    I don’t know any mountain villagers, just Midwesterners that have just barely thawed out from last winter

    Out of interest- where do you live, what is your anecdotal experience of the climate?

  • John Melone

    Yeah cant say that i would consider CNN as a valid source of information and no i wouldn’t consider FOX a good source either. This isn’t a left or right issue. But “whoever” is your classic example of what i had described in my earlier post. This person has so much invested into this idea they have to attack people and say i don’t deserve to breath his air. Suppose i should watch “Inconvenient Truth” for more scientific information then (Sarcasm). And i suppose were hated by a lot of the middle east because we have “freedom” thats what the media said, not because of the blowback from operations our government admits we were doing back in the 50′s, 60′s and 70′s in those countries. You know i wasn’t around in the 70′s but if you goto your library and go through the microfiche of papers from then, you’ll see that the scare back then was Global Cooling. Crap Even now a lot of the big people in the global warming camp are saying we may have to go through a period of cooling before we get to the warming now. Come on give me a break. Ohh and sea level is rising, ohh no, because thats never happened before in the history of earth so it must be global warming. Ice disappearing, Ice has actually been forming in a lot of areas as well, but you wont hear about that on CNN because it doesn’t fit in with the idea of global warming!.

    Maybe we should just get rid of Co2 all together!?!? Cause we don’t really need it, that way we all die and then all that will remains is the earth.

  • duddits

    When Gore ran for president one of the reasons for protest at the dem national convention was the Gore family business (oil) was about 2 kick a tribe in the rainforest off their land to drill for oil! The tribe threatened suacide!

  • Danny Mengis

    HI- good discussion all-

    Just wanted to cast my vote for ‘Global Warming is Baloney” there

    and – I don’t know to much about science stuff, we did some at school- but- isn’t Co2 the stuff that all animals breath out – that makes the plants green? don’t planst also like the warmth & the longer growing seasons? And the animals like the plants and the warmth… and, but not so much the frozen wastelands…
    I know I do… So
    I may be as thick as a whale omelet, but I don’t get it, is this just to help polar bears, so they get to the baby seals? .. who’s side are we on now anyway?? My giography teacher told me polar bears were kinda like the a**holes of the arctic, and everyone hates em!, but maybe he was kidding- it got a really good laugh though!

  • Winnona Cruikshank, PhD Unkuik, AK

    Hello Danny, I am an environmental researcher in Northern Alaksa, and have spent a lot of time with the local Inuit, who have a great spiritual respect for this animal which they call ‘Brother’ and regard as almost human. However they do have a very direct approach to these animals that can be very dangerous if not treated with the respect they deserve from us.

    And yes, in the native Inuit language of ‘Inuktitut’ Polar Bears are known as ‘Nanook’ which literally translated (according to the tribal elder) means means ‘a**hole of the ice’ a rather blunt moniker earned for their anti-social habits and tendancies towards wasteful aggression.

    However we should not be so quick to judge this proud animal, they live a very harsh existence, spending many days alone on the brink of starvation trying to sniff out baby seals which they capture by breaking through the ice, and feed live to their hungry cubs, not something you wanna see right after a local whale blubber dinner I can tell you! Those little Nanooks look really cute till you see the teeth on those things!!

    Some clever individuals have in fact migrated south to join their cousins the Grizzly Bear or ‘Arctos Frikktus Horribilis’- (and I don’t think we need translate that one for you!)- where the quest for food involves, as a local Inuit told me ‘standing over waterfall with your mouth open swallowing salmon till you puke’ When I asked him why the Nanook did not employ this technique in his native northern habitat instead of wandering for days, he told me after a long pause, that he asked the brother bear this question once and it replied; ’cause all the ****** rivers are totally ****** frozen over, why do you think?”

    True story…

    As a cautionary note, I would advise any sightseers not to go into this territory unless you are quite literally armed to the teeth, and I’m not talking .22 here, preferably something fully automatic as you aint gonna get off a 2nd shot with these things, seriously, and I don’t care if the Inuit can’t make dorky pants out of it when it’s full of holes, Guys, LL Bean delivers up here too you know!

  • Anton

    Richard, John, and other Global Warming critics:

    You might be right about a lack of global warming. I don’t think so, but I’m willing to concede that you could be right. Still, my thing on all the stuff we do for global warming is that there’s no downside to it. Recycling is still a positive step, it reduces the amount of waste in our dumps which is a good thing. There’s no drawback to eating less (or no) animal products, and most people find that their health improves. Using more energy efficient lighting and appliances in your home saves you money in the long run and reduces waste. Finding alternate fuel sources and harnessing solar, water, and wind energy can only lead to eventually cheaper energy options for the masses and less pollution.
    Basically, whether or not global warming is a sham is irrelevent to me. These are all things we should be doing anyway. Just my take.

  • Whoever…

    Richard and the ‘others’:

    “Again, a lot of emotion, political ideology, anecdotal stories. but no science.”

    This is the typical answer from ‘your side’!! No matter how many sources and data we present, we’re always wrong and all of it is unreliable! You’re the ones who possess the ‘real’ truth!!

    So, my links are not from reliable sources according to you but the one you provided, from a US senate committee, is. That’s not biased at all!!!

    ‘Our’ scientific facts never mean anything and you never reply directly to any fact we present! On the other side, ‘our side’ does:

    - CO2 is obviously a necessary gas like any other; what has been happening is that human activities have released an abnormal quantity of CO2 and other greenhouse gases to the atmosphere; the high concentration of these gases prevents the normal reflection by our planet of part of the heat absorbed from the sun; this traps too much heat which causes global warming (a very simple and graphic example of this is a car parked in the sun with the windows rolled down – a normal exchange of heat – and that same car with the windows rolled up preventing the heat from going out – what’s happening right now;

    - climate on our planet has always suffered normal and natural variations but they were just part of our planet’s climate cycle; what’s happening is that we have disrupted that cycle; real scientists can’t deny this because it’s a fact; however you don’t need to be a scientist to figure out that if we release massive quantities of CO2 and other gases to the atmosphere and at the same time cut down millions of trees, something will change; the system isn’t balanced any more; we have broken that optimum equilibrium;

    “But realize that when you hear from these sources that ‘most scientists believe whatever…” they are usually refering to ‘climatologists’” – so you want doctors or biologists to study something they don’t know anything about? Do you even realize the fallacies in your arguments!?

    - Jupiter? Are you comparing two completely different planets and trying to extrapolate what happens there to our planet!?

    And yes I do get emotional because if there’s something I can’t tolerate is ignorant arrogant people who deny facts and accuse others of being wrong without debunking all of their statements.

    I sincerely wished ‘we’ were all wrong and that we were being manipulated by those conspiracy groups you talk about. However I believe we are right. Oh and it will not be the end of the world, instead it will be the end of our nice way of life…

    Then you will look back and ask yourself how you could have been so blind… And yes, it will happen sooner than people think.

    And there’s no point in continuing this argument because we’ll never agree on this!

  • Richard (the ignorant-arrogant-doesnt-deserve-air-zombie)

    Whoever-

    “- Jupiter? Are you comparing two completely different planets and trying to extrapolate what happens there to our planet!?”

    I’ll try this once more, my reference to Jupiter was to demonstrate the known principle that weather systems are powered in general by the contrast in temperatures, not the amount of warmth itself- hence the predicted greater warming of the poles would even the global temp. contrast reducing overall intensity in weather systems- again this is not my theory- it’s all in the IPCC reports if you are interested, they can probably explain it better than I. (so send your above astonishment to NASA) In general studying other planets is very important to understanding our own, just as the Mars rovers are doing, the history of that planet’s climate may well help us understand our own-

    The whole point of science is not having to take anyone’s word for it, . I’m no genius, but I have a modest telescope and camera I can use to measure the redshift in a galaxy 30 million light years away and verify the age of the universe. I can do experiments with light beams and slits in a piece of cardboard to demonstrate that light acts as a wave as well as a particle- supporting Einsteins theory of special relativity-

    You may have to be a scientist to produce the evidence, to access the data, to benefit from your peers etc etc, but to understand? to verify? We are all capable of that, don’t let politicians, or special interest groups tell you you are not that smart, that you must trust them to interpret the science for you.

    Consider that Galileo overturned the fundamental beliefs of the most powerful authority on Earth- the Catholic church, risking his life and being imprisoned. The catholic church had the most educated men, the greatest resources, even the best observatories, they were not stupid, but they were wrong because they had a pre-determined ideology, and Galileo used only scientific principles of observation, measurement and outcome prediction .He died still not as sure of his findings as the Catholics were of their beliefs.

    Have you ever read a single actual report?-NOT the CNN coverage, NOT the political UN ‘summaries for policy makers‘ not even the repot summaries made by UN officials, the actual scientific studies.?
    I promise you will find a completely different tone – not the certitude of Al Gore or a host of celebs and journalists and university professors. Check out what Allan wrote earlier- that is a reasonable short account of the magnitude of the problem- one of the strict principles of sciences is to scrutinize your own studies, never to be dogmatic, everything must be falsifiable, and this is what you will find from most honest scientists.

    I’ll leave you with a direct quote from the Catholic church in 1640 in response to Galileo’s controversial studies of the solar system, in particular the moons of Jupiter which he likened to Earth’s, and are now know as the Galilean moons.

    “- Jupiter? Are you comparing two completely different planets and trying to extrapolate what happens there to our planet!?”

  • Elliot ,OH

    Whoover-

    We haven’t exactly seen you present many facts yet, I’m not sure who would disagree with you more, the
    National Academy of Sciences or the skeptics, you seem to have your own revolutionary branch of science,
    like that Galileo, but angrier!

    But since you kind of brought up a relevant subject – I thought I’d throw in a few basic facts.
    The greenhouse effect is what keeps the earth from freezing like Mars, the majority of this
    effect comes from water vapor- the primary greenhouse gas accounting for about %70
    its concentration in the atmosphere ranges up to 4%
    Co2 is a trace element- a few hundreds of parts per million, but vital for photosynthesis in plants
    and hence nearly all life on earth.
    Of Co2 released into the atmosphere each year, the large majority is natural- from respiration, around 450
    gigatonnes. The contribution from all human industry being about 26 according to IPCC estimates
    10 of which are re-absorbed in the same year by plants photosynthesizing & growing and greening the planet at a slightly faster pace because of our nasty extra Co2.

    This makes for an accumulated extra concentration since the dawn of human industry and prosperity of around ..drum roll… 70 parts per million- arrrghhhh I’m choking!!!- no wait- it’s colorless, odorless, and a harmless nutrient of all life.

    (compare to water vapor (the major greenhouse gas) at up to 40000 parts per million)

    sorry for all the dull figures- you can check them with any scientific body if you like
    I just thought the actual figures may be a bit less misleading for people than

    human activities have released an abnormal quantity of CO2!
    or
    “we release massive quantities of CO2 “!

    So… were these the fruits of your ‘emotional’ inspiration, a little artistic license perhaps? or was this from one of those TV documentaries you recommended us idiots watch to educate ourselves, have you considered a career in politics or journalism?

  • John Melone

    Also to go along with the whole planet talk mentioned above. For the few years we have been able to monitor the “climate” on other planets in our system, they have noticed that all the other planets temps have been rising as well. I will try to find the link to the Nasa article i’m reffering to and post it here in a bit.

    Heres what i have so far..
    Jupiter
    http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060504_red_jr.html
    http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080523.html
    Pluto
    http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/pluto_warming_021009.html
    Neptune Moon
    http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/19980526052143data_trunc_sys.shtml

    Thats all i can find so far as some of the links i had saved no longer work.

    That being said for a side of humor, we best start contacting the alien life forms on those other planets and start telling them to stop driving those SUV’s all around because they are headed towards global warming.

  • Steve, MI

    ‘Alternative Energy’ how did it get that name?
    I know how ‘Alternative Medicine’ got it’s name- it doesn’t work. If it did it wouldn’t be ‘alternative’ would it? it would be mainstream.

    The whackos that use magnets and crystals say it’s a big conspiracy by big corporations- all around the world, forever- that stops these things keeping us all healthy..

    What do the Alternative Energy people say.. same thing right?

    Why wouldn’t Merck sell magnets, or cystals? market them, save the astronomic cost of research on complex drugs, lawsuits on failed experiments?

    for that matter why wouldn’t an energy company bypass all the hassle of sites/pollution/protesters/expensive coal/oil deliveries if they could buy up a dirt cheap field and fill it full of windmills for free power forever??

    The only wind generators I’ve heard of were built with massive Govt subsidies and produce tiny amounts of intermittent expensive energy, why not just fill a field full of crytals and magnets and pay people with tax money to clean them? same difference- less of an eyesore.

  • John Melone

    Yes, Wind Turbines are one of the least cost effective/energy effecient sources of power unless you are close to the wind turbines. Which the majority of the population of the USA is not. So you would have to start installing on the roofs of buildings as in most metro areas there would not be spots for turbine farms.

    As for alternative medicines, yes the crystals and magnets are goofy, but to say that they all do not work is not good. There are many Alternate methods that do work as my friend with diabetes found out. Nothing mainstream worked, then on a whim he saw an alternative doctor, and within months/weeks he no longer had any diabetes. Ancient civilizations used them and have passed them down over time and many do work. Some do not, but with some of the side affects of these pharma meds i would just rather not encounter. Remember they are in the business of keeping people sick but healthy at the same time. Thats how they make money in big pharma. Most stuff that comes from big pharma are treatments, not cures. Now im not saying they aren’t trying to cure some of the serious and rarer diseases. but the things that are not life threating they do not want to flat out just cure it.

    Its similar to the drug war, you will never see drugs legalized on a federal level because to many careers and jobs have been built on the war on drugs. If drugs were legal the DEA would be totally pointless, and that will never happen, they make to much money busting people.

    Of course when their the ones bringing in the majority of large drug shipments, they are getting double the income. Bring them in and then bust the peons that use them. :-)

  • Steve, MI

    The big con with Windmills is the term ‘Capacity’. ‘This windfarm has the capacity to power 1000 homes’. That means if all of them are running at full capacity- perfect 20-25 mph wind conditions no more no less- brand new(no dirt on blades) does not count transmission loss (huge for windmills).
    Actual real world capacity never averages 100% even for real energy plants- more like 80-90: for wimdmills its about 5-10%

    But the real problem is that power generation is all about meeting demand at the right time. Mainly the peak at 6pm, about 1-2 hours after the wind usually drops, unless there a storm- in which case windmills must be shut down to avoid damage. So the energy is rarely actually used as it means ramping down coal/oil feed rates/ lifting boron fuel rods from reactors etc all to accomodate a ‘gust’. The only energy you can ramp down practically to accomodate wind into the grid- is Hydro- you can just close the turbines. And in fact this is the case in California- and the power is still only bought because it is mandated!otherwise the hydro is still way cheaper!
    before that they just spun without being connected!

    I still have the same problem with alternative medicine-. If your friend discovered an alternative cure for diabetes that actually works, he is worth biilions of dollars, any pharma company would dive on the opportunity to patent that, they have families too that they watch die of tragic diseases- they are really that inhuman? Not even 1 pharma company is tempted at the instant billions- prefering to keep people sick?

    That involves every pharma company in the world being in on the conspiracy- it doesn’t really work does it?

  • John Melone

    I will ask him for full details over the weekend about his experience and let you know.

    And sure not even one company would be interested, you got to think long term. In my mind of thinking even though i probably never would, if i were an “evil” minded person who was the president of some pharma company and we found the cure for something lets say, herpes, as that is only treatable and not curable so far.

    We find the cure for herpes, we let it out and within months i have made, i dunno say charge 1 dollar for every American. So bam just made roughly, what, 350 million dollars in a short amount of time. Woohoo thats awesome.. But wait, now no one in the US has herpes and now the 300 million dollars of revenue I made EVERY YEAR “treating” herpes is gone and i will now have to explain this to my shareholders or board of directors of why we have lost 300 million dollars in revenue every year. Or over a ten year period 3 Billion dollars. These companies for the most part don’t think short term, quick buck: its long term, long term return. Thats what I would do.

    But thats not necessarily what most Americans would do as our country has become a country of short term. immediate return, quick buck, no accountability. My generation, I’m 30, and the younger people, frankly just scare me at how gullible we are, and how easily we fall into a mob mentality over issues the news brings up.

    1. So 300 million a year for treating a non lethal, i think, disease? or
    2. 300 million for only one year to cure the disease.

    I would pick option 1, not everyone would but thats the point, most people haven’t been corrupted so they may pick option 2. Not me though, so i wouldn’t, i couldn’t be the only person on the earth who would pick option 1.

    I know it sucks, it be nice to think that everyone in the world is good and has good intentions, but they don’t. I dunno; if i can come up with the idea of something evil like that, and do that if I was in that scenario, why would it be so hard to believe that there aren’t actually people out there who actually have the power to do something like this.

    Start counting all the commercials on tv and see how many of them are cures VS. treatments. all i know is that this line seems to be engraved in my head for some reason.. ” XXXX is not a cure for XXX, side affects may include ….”

    Thanks for reading my thoughts…

  • Steve, MI

    OK I take your point- I get the logic,
    also it would be great to start seeing cures instead of endless treatments that are obviously not getting to the heart of the diseases.

    but I like to look on the bright side when possible- there are enough bad guys and evil out there in the world – but I don’t think big pharma companies are among them..
    to take the herpes example

    what would stop 1 single company, or a start-up, to reason ‘everybody knows this cure is there, but are covering it up to prolong profitablility on the disease, so once 1 Co. lets the cat out of the bag- the game’s up- no-one else makes anything- so why don’t I take the patent and the quick buck myself right now before someone beats me to it?”

    But the fact that these alternative medicines are never adopted by any pharma companies requires that they all take the evil option, everytime, everywhere- even the non profit government research labs and the charitable orgs. would have to be in on this- I would at least hope that’s not the case

    If anything- I think maybe the system errs on the side of over prescribing, and over treating, not the opposite. When you’re a hammer- everything looks like a nail. I have a good friend who is the head surgeon at a large hospital, he talks openly to me about performing ‘non-elective’ surgeries that he feels are unessesary, and all kinds of questionable practices that are ultimately profit driven, but they are not monsters, they take pride in saving lives and helping people- the hypocratic oath to do no harm is overwhelmingly honered I believe.

    Likewise- I appreciate the exchange- always good to bounce ideas around, my wife/friends would have told me to shut up and get off my soapbox long ago!- I guess that’s what the interent is for!

  • Steve, MI

    Last thing- just to come full circle from health to BK-

    McDonalds is always considered to be synonymous with obesity, bad eating etc-
    Always the worst offender right? super-size me etc etc.

    And (like global warming) I always accepted this ’till I thought it through-
    those are the tiniest burgers and fries on the planet.

    BK is way worse- so is Wendys, Arbies KFC?! Taco Bell, Sonic, Steak and Shake, White Castle, Dominoes…. just about any fast food you can think of is far more fattening, probably even Subway ( I’ve never seen anybody actually order the 6 inch- no cheese veggie sub on wheat bread!- more like 12” meatball with cheese and mayo)

    What about sit in/family places- Big Boy, Cracker Barrel, Pizza Hut

    How about any traditional American places- or Italian?, Chinese?

    I think I am like most people- when I stop and get a Big-Mac and fries, it’s probably the healthiest thing I’ve had eating out all year- not to mention what most people eat at home,

    The criticism doesn’t really have anything to do with McDonald’s food, it can only be that it is the most successful restaurant of any kind in the world?

    Have good weekend!

  • Whoever…

    Wow…

    John Melone, you’re actually defending alternative medicines and claiming that big pharmaceuticals aren’t interested in finding cures but instead are only developing treatments so they can profit more?

    Where’s your scientific data to back it up?
    Where are the scientists to back that up?

    I’m fairly sure that if those who defend that global warming is a hoax read your comment, they would say you’re a nut job!!

    So you see, there’s no absolute truth. I’ve never heard any scientist say that about big pharmaceuticals or defend alternative medicines, so why is what you wrote true and what I wrote (when there are a lot of scientists who agree global warming is real) about global warming is not?
    Or maybe that’s just ‘your truth’, like believing in global warming ‘is mine’!

    Curiously, Steve didn’t insult you or doubted your word on those issues! Is it because maybe he previously agreed with you and therefore he sees you as an equal and is willing to accept what you’re saying?
    Do you think he would even take that into consideration if I was the one writing what you claimed? Of course not!
    You know, absolute truth is very subjective!

    The difference between both of you and I is that I have an open mind and am willing to admit I’m wrong when I realize that ‘other people’s truth’ is more ‘truthful’ than mine!

    In fact I believe that some alternative medicines help in certain cases. I’ve met amazing people who do some work in this area and from what I could see, hear, read and experience, it works.
    I also believe big pharmaceuticals, just like oil companies, are only interested in making as much profit as possible regardless of the consequences!

    Regarding crystals in specific, they work not because they are magical but because they conduct energy. Everything is made of energy and energy vibrates in numerous frequencies. I know for sure that those people don’t use rocks that don’t conduct energy. I apologize for not being very technical but I admit I’m no expert on energy…

    Also, think about the following: have you ever felt sad and then decided to watch a funny film, go out for a walk or hear a song you love, to make you feel better? That’s not magic. It’s just that by doing something you enjoy doing, your body releases chemical substances that make you feel good. And therefore they can be considered therapies.

    Ever heard of the Placebo Effect experiment? A sugar pill with no effect whatsoever was given to patients who were told it worked better than other drugs. What happened was that it actually helped them get better more effectively than when they took real pills! Magic? No! They ‘convinced their body’ that they were going to get better and so they did!

    “I know how ‘Alternative Medicine’ got it’s name- it doesn’t work. If it did it wouldn’t be ‘alternative’ would it? it would be mainstream”

    In fact alternative medicines are being successfully used in hospitals in Germany and many other countries (including he USA). One example of that is replacing anaesthesia with hypnosis during surgeries!

    So you see, science still has a lot to learn and teach.

    Right now I’m absolutely convinced from all that I hear, see, read and experience that global warming is real! Am I wrong? You say I am. Many scientists say I’m right.

    Until I’m convinced otherwise, I will continue believing in it!

    “for that matter why wouldn’t an energy company bypass all the hassle of sites/pollution/protesters/expensive coal/oil deliveries if they could buy up a dirt cheap field and fill it full of windmills for free power forever??”

    20% of Denmark’s energy comes from wind.
    An entire town in Germany is sustained with solar energy.
    There are so many clean renewable energies…tidal, geothermal… Why should we remain stuck in fossil fuels, which by the way as you well know are finite?
    Nigeria is one of the countries with more oil resources in the world but 70% of its population lives below the poverty line… What’s the advantage of oil?
    Exxon had record profits in 2008; why should they invest in renewable energies when they’re profiting with oil? It’s like the big Pharmaceuticals’ example John gave.

    However, even oil companies are realizing they need to change their strategy:
    http://www.newsweek.com/id/145851
    Ever heard of Boon Pickens, the oil magnate? Why do you think he wants to massively invest in wind energy?

    20% of earth’s population uses 80% of the resources – one day the remaining 80% of the population will knock at your door and demand a share of those resources because climate changes dried their rivers, destroyed their crops, flooded their land, etc. Then maybe you’ll believe global warming isn’t such a hoax!! Just maybe…

  • John Melone

    Ok wow, whoever, like Richard was saying, you seem to get way emotional and immediately attack.

    First off i WAS NOT insulted by Steve, i actually agree with what he was saying.

    second i never said any thing about scientist in my previous post
    Whoever said..
    “Where’s your scientific data to back it up?
    Where are the scientists to back that up?”
    NOT ONCE! did i even mention the word science. All i was trying to do was say ” Hey, not all alternative meds are goofy.”
    You are the one bringing up scientist and pharma in your post i never did. That whole post was what i personally believe how alot of big pharma possibly work.

    NOT ONCE DID I SAY I HAD SCIENCE TO BACK UP MY IDEAS ON CURES, TREATMENTS AND BIG PHARMA. That was all personal stated opinion. If i found a cure for something personally where i was making millions of dollars a year, I WOULD SWEEP it under the rug because im a greedy bastard and if i cure the disease my high profits are gone because i cannot provide treatment for people when they are cured.

    You say u have scientific proof of global warming, then lets see it?

    whoever says
    “climate changes dried their rivers, destroyed their crops, flooded their land, etc”

    yes, because in the whole history of our plant earth, rivers have never dried, there have never been floods, or other dramatic climate changes before the 1900′s. Man i would hate to be a caveman living next door to you because you’d probably come over and beat me on the head with your club because you think i caused your dodo bird farm to die because of the sudden drying up of the river that ran between us.

    You are trying to twist my words and thoughts to say well if he believes that about big pharma then he is crazy, so his views on global warming must be wrong.

    Whoever said
    “The difference between both of you and I is that I have an open mind and am willing to admit I’m wrong when I realize that ‘other people’s truth’ is more ‘truthful’ than mine!”

    In my experience people who say those type of things like
    ” Im open minded” or “I tolerate all types of people” Are usually the exact opposite of what they say they are, not open minded and very intolerant. And my point can be very easily proved as to see how you may react towards the bottom of the page towards what i wrote there. I’d say it would become an outright attack, but you may do the opposite now just to prove me wrong.

    Really i think your statement above is totally false. I do not think you have an open mind and u are probably the last to admit you are wrong. I just had to admit to one of my co-workers that i was wrong about some computer stuff today and on top of that i had to call the I.T. person whos position i took over for help today because i just didn’t know how to resolve the problem i was having.

    Myself and Richard have provided many of links to look at, that question global warming, have you even looked at them? Yeah, i know “why don’t i look at the links u provided” but i wont look at your CNN links or your 2 UN links and thats because i don’t consider CNN to be a worthy source of info, and the UN is the main perpetrator of global warming to gain more control over the world population. That would be like me asking you to follow FOX links that go against global warming. Would u look at those, id bet not. I have no liking for fox either so don’t get the wrong idea, except for simpsons and family guy i don’t care for FOX.

    OH but what about the comment i just made above there “UN is the main perpetrator of global warming to gain more control over the world population”

    Do u have enough of an open mind to look more deeply into the roots of the UN, global warming and need i say, “Conspiracy Theories”

    Do you have enough of an open mind to look at the following site…
    http://www.ae911truth.org/wtc7.php

    Or should i prepare myself for the wave of nutty attacks because most people really don’t have an open mind. You say your mind is open so try responding next time with less attitude and more “science”

    Sorry i got to know this as well.
    You have got to be even like 20 or 21 years old or 35-40. My bet though is you’re on the younger side. Truthfully Am i right? I’m 30, turned it on Cinco De Mayo.

  • John Melone

    Sorry had to add one more thing. Sorry for the caps above but had to make sure that i was clear about that.

    Regarding this statement you made whoever
    “Right now I’m absolutely convinced from all that I hear, see, read and experience that global warming is real! Am I wrong? You say I am. Many scientists say I’m right.”

    I cannot blame you for feeling that way. We have been constantly bombarded with global warming over the years. Almost every where you look now, like u say above shows/talks about how global warming is real. You beat your kid enough and he will do what ever you ask sooner or later. Same idea but a lot more subtle FLOOD the media with global warming, get a bunch of scientist on board to help as well, get some business to because theres money in being green if you know how to work it and sooner or later that becomes the hot topic and most people start buying into the idea of global warming, it is not short of brainwashing. Over and over, Fear, fear, fear, terror, global warming, its not hard to just give in and go with the mob. Its easy just to go with the flow. thats the way it was set up to be. Its a lot harder to be on the opposite side of the “Mainstream” then it is to be with the “Mainstream” because most of the time it comes down to ridicule, name calling, attacking the “questioners” because its a lot easier to call some one a nut job then it is to do the work. Let alone for some people to admit some of these things, would shatter their whole way of life. So its just easier to attack.

  • indian nation

    You can call me a hippie tree hugger if you want I call myself a air breather!

  • Richard

    Well if there is a way to tie all this together, it comes back again to what SCIENCE actually is and is not.

    It is the best way we have of finding the truth in anything, not perfect or absolute, just the best way.

    Kind of like Winston Churchill’s statement about democracy?- ‘it’s the worst form of government apart from all the others’

    The key principles are
    accurate measurement
    repeatable experiments
    reliable outcome prediction

    These principles exist for some incredibly complex and conceptually mind blowing fields of science like Nano-technology, quantum physics, nuclear physics etc. And as bizarre as they seem- there is very little controversy among scientists all over the world because the science is self evident.

    The same principles do not exist for Big Foot, UFos, ghosts, prayer, Global warming or alternative medicine like crystals. That is why there IS so much skepticism. Like the 3500 different versions of Christianity,
    if God actually gave us full evidence of his own existence and principles etc, we’d have no debate, just 1 religion, like we have only 1 krebs cycle, or 1 theory of special relativity.

    That does not even mean they may not (technically) exits/are real – but it DOES meant that they cannot be verified.

    The only people who profess to be SURE of these unscientific things are politicians, religeous people, journalists, lay-people etc, not the scientists, or they are by definition, not real scientists.

    If anyone here can offer incontrovertible evidence of crystals healing power, or global warming, or ESP or whatever, that is good enough to win over the entire scientific community,
    good luck! I have been honored to correspond with such brilliant and soon to be famous scientists!

    But convincing scientists like the ones on John’s list will not be simple,

    Convincing CNN or a special interest group or Al Gore may be alot easier, you just have to write a good enough story,hit the right ideology, or offer him enough cash!

  • Steve, MI

    I think talking about global warming and alternative medicine is useful because it highlights the kinds of things you can actually conduct science on.

    Crystals are really really easy

    You get a group of people with whatever range of ailments or beliefs you like, give half real crystals and the other half identical plastic placebos- compare the difference- there is none. Anyone can repeat this simple experiment as many times as they like and get the same results- no problem, that’s why no real doctor/hospital ever uses them- it’s not even controversial. But still people believe they work, they are not stupid, they are just persuaded by something other than science, and you can’t blame them if they or their families or friends are suffering.

    Now look at the climate- come up with a system of algorithms that not only models the entire planet’s poorly understood systems of atmosphere/ cloud formation/ocean chemistry/ currents/ eco-systems/cosmic rays, to produce a global average temperature accurate to within a few degrees over 100 s of years- BUT is also a system that everybody agrees and can verify is accurate?! A little more tricky- that’s why no real scientist has much confidence in global warming- In fact- less & less the more it’s studied. Again I don’t think believers are stupid, or don‘t deserve the air they breath, but they are quite often ideologically driven, scientifically illiterate, or the focus is more on the persuasive politics, or news shows/ TV documentaries which some consider constitutes scientific authority

    As far as the insult part;

    John, I don’t agree with everything you say, but you come across as reasonable, rational, open minded and willing to debate so I certainly never intended any personal insult. I think you’re right about people who pitch themselves as ‘open minded and tolerant’ ever listen to NPR? if ever anyone dares to call in with an opinion that differs from their strict rules of correct thought, they start frothing at the mouth!

    So I don’t think there is anything to be gained here by insults… well maybe just this once… ‘Whoever‘, you are the kind of person we used to refer to in school as an ‘utter spastic!’ :)

  • John Melone

    Bravo, Steve and Rich. Very well said for both. Yes me and Steve may disagree on things, but that doesn’t mean i have any less respect or dislike for him. If anything i respect him even more because he is able to disagree with me without resorting to name calling and the likes of irrational thoughts and pokes. At no point was i ever insulted. It will take a hell of a lot more then that to insult myself. People who get insulted easily usually have a highly inflated ego. You know, some one like Ganine Garofalo might get insulted by our comments about globbal warming. I thought she did a good job on 24, other then that, i stay away from things she does, shes crazy.

    Also would like to say that i never thought or said that people who support global warming were stupid and dumb for believing that. Its not as if i am out there driving a monster truck, polluting when ever i get a chance. If i can help out, i do. Picking up liter in front of the office, always throwing out my cig. butts instead of just flicking them.

    It is the policies and thoughts of the world on global warming that i do not care for. IE: Cap and trade. Any new taxes that may be invoked in the name of global warming, which will be plenty!

    When it comes down to it, it will be countries like the US and England that will be hit the hardest. Now i am somewhat going to be talking out of my butt. so don’t quote me. From what i can put together in my head, the US isn’t even that large of a polluter any more. You know the problem we have with no jobs and stuff. The majority of our “industry” business’s that pollute the most, have been moved over seas to countries like China, Taiwan. and from what i have read, places like china do not and will probably not conform to any new environmental standards set. So were already going to get hit with ridiculous taxes and then will probably be hit again for the same thing because that product i bought came from china, so we have to pay for that pollution as well because they “china”, as a country aren’t doing any thing about it. Am i right about this? That the majority of where are goods come from now a days don’t even follow internationally set environmental laws? Well im sorry if business wants to move our jobs away to where they can use slave labor, then they should float the bill and not pass it on to us. Other wise bring industry back to us.

  • Steve, MI

    I agree with most of that but it’s worth remembering that the Carbon cap and trade tax system that will transfer trillions of dollars from the private to the public sector doesn’t even have anything to do with pollution anyway.

    Not by any stretch of the imagination is Co2 a pollutant! It is a basic nutrient of all life on Earth, it’s plant food- it is literally what makes our planet green.
    The vast majority released into the atmosphere each year is through natural respiration- as was said earlier about 440 gigatons natural v. a handul from humans. The total amount of extra Co2 accumulated in the atmosphere after 100 years of industry and progress is around 70 parts per million.

    If you drive an SUV- plants and Earth would be thanking you. Check out the shrubs next time you go through a BK drive through that are exposed to tail pipes 24/7- very healthy! Co2 is what you pump into a greenhouse- not to make it hotter- but to nourish your plants.

    Any small warming achieved by the tiny added greenhouse effect would be an overwhelming benefit to nearly all life on the planet- you would really have to go out of your way to find a niche animal that actually prefers frozen wasteland to warmth and green plants- like a Polar bear!

  • Steve, MI

    -And to clarify- these aren’t my opinions- any real scientist will verify this (and for any of the dwindling global warming faithful still out there- Al Gore is not a real scientist!)

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