Deceptive photo. The photo is of a cute baby Harp seal from Canada. Namibian seals (cape fur seal) are a completely different species and are brown as young. If you’re going to be green, please try to be accurate.

A says:

The photo is of a cute baby Harp seal from Canada. Namibian seals (cape fur seal) are a completely different species and are brown as young.

end of qoute

Uh, I’d say that cute little seal in the new pic from Nambia is adorably cute too!

E

All of you who adore the cute seals and think they are so pretty ,have you ever gone hungry?If the west or who ever is against the culling of these seals can they give us, without charge the amount of fish these seals consume , if the answer is yes sure we will stop doing it.For those tree hugging ,pretty seal staring people. If you have to see your child go hungry for one day, believe me that seals will not look so pretty and adorable anymore.Please fly over the Namibian Coastline and your jaw will drop over the amount of seals our coastlines have and afterwards 90 000 will only sound like a lot.We are one of the few African counties that are successfully managing our natural resources(in some cases better than some western countries).Please get ALL your facts straight before judging us. PS if no one buys these seal products, we will cull them anyway.

To Whoever:

“Nature controls itself and that’s why it’s in perfect balance.”

Are you kidding yourself? I have a degree in Marine Biology and I can confirm that that is not the case. Take a course in Biology of Populations. Patterns of predator and prey rise and wane and are almost NEVER in perfect balance. As a rule, the population of the predators follow the population of the prey.

One reason that the seals are being clubbed is that there are not enough sharks predating on the seals and there is seal overpopulation. Clubbing is brutal but so is getting eaten by a shark. Of course, there could be a more humane way to control the seal population but too many seals mean over predation of the fish in the area around Cape Cross.

Sadly, in a world where people and animals compete for resources, there is not enough food for everyone. In the nature, availability of food dictates how large a population can grow. When the food runs out, what happens? ANimals starve to death and get predated (eaten alive). Nature is not nice and pretty. What are you going to do? Let the seals overpopulate and feed them yourself? Or let them eat all the fish and starve to death?

What is your alternative?

Whoever: You are stating parts of the problem (in a condescending manner, mind you) innaccurately. Also, your definition and explanation of “a perfect balance” is incorrect. You state that you are not an expert, neither am I, I just have several more years of study of this subject under my belt. What happens is a cycle of abundance and scarcity based upon predation, food supplies, disease, etc. Again, please read a book on “Biology of Populations” to fully understand this. But what happens is that when food is scarce, seals WILL starve to death and seals WILL put a overpredation pressure on their food sources. Other sources share this food source too.

We also have the fact that naturally, the seals will starve to death when there is less food. This brings up a very sensitive point. Is it more humane to kill part of the seal population or let them live and starve? Starving to death is not fun. But I have no answer for that. It is just a topic that is part of this reality. This happens in America with the deer population annually. Deer in the north US starve to death because there are too many deer and there is no food. Do you want to save the deer during the summer without thinking that they die in pain and hunger in the cold in the winter because there is no food? Do you know this happens? Being eaten alive by a wolf because you are too weak to escape because you have no food IS what happens. Or, if there are well fed predators, they’ll just eat part of you (if you are a deer).

Seals also play a role intermediate hosts to Helminth worms. If you eat a lot of sushi, there is a likelihood that there are a few of these parasites in you. The more intermediate hosts in a population, the greater the infection rate potential because of a higher reproductive worm population. If you are interested in learning about this, read up on seaborne invertebrate parasite life-cycles. Similar thing with pigs and trichinosis.

You state that my statement is true because people are killing and finning sharks (I assume in Namibia). No. This is not the case in Namibian fisheries. What has happened is that the Namibians have not been able to police their fisheries to prevent overfishing by local professionals AND from overseas fishing companies who flagrantly violate laws. Sadly, Namibia, as an emerging African nation, does not have infinite resources to police their waters. This is sad, but this is reality. If you want to help reduce the seal slaughter for years to come, donate money to the Namibian Department of Fisheries. A few boats, a budget for spare parts and fuel and staff would be great. Brazil has donated two in the past year. Stop the overfishing, AND you preserve biodiversity, you preserve fisheries that support flocks of birds and that provides economic income to an 19 year old stable African nation.

You want to help stop the seal clubbing? Try increasing the fish population in Namibia. Fund protected fish nurseries. Fund the policing of the fisheries industry. Lobby government to be able to seize boats of illegal fishers from outside Namibia.

Being angry about seal clubbing this year will not help stop it next year.

Also, here is something to think about. And it is probably sad on many levels. I’m suspecting that the people hired to do the clubbing are poor and need the money. I’m just suspecting this. Cape Cross has about 650,000 seals at my last check and there are not many sources of income near by. In fact, there are shanty towns not too far away where there are people who probably would need a job where they get paid. Africa is still Africa and with sad situations like this, the poor people who need money to feed their kids are the ones doing the deed.

You want to help stop the seal clubbing? Bring jobs to the shanty towns outside of Cape Cross, Swakopmund.

I do know that the harp seal clubbing is a large source of income for the people up in the harp seal clubbing district (sorry) in Canada who don’t have many other job options.

So poverty and economic factors can also be significant factors that affect this.

What you are doing is taking your anger about the state of the oceans and applying things that do not happen in Namibia and claim that they do and getting all angry about it.

Yes. Clubbing seals sucks!

So again, I asked you, what your alternative to this is and it seemed like I got yelled at because you are angry about it. But still, no alternative.

I asked you what your alternative is to this and you have not provided a good or accurate answer, you just sound mad. Well being mad is one thing but having enough accurate information to know the problem and how to solve it is another.

Maybe, you can look at this reply, identify some alternatives I have put together, raise some funding and do it. Remember that you’re not going to stop the seal clubbing tomorrow. But if you really want to, maybe in 10 years?

What do you think of my alternatives? Do you have any that you haven’t mentioned?

First off, my opinions are not to defend sealing. They are to fully understand the problem. If we don’t like something, then we don’t like something. If we want to change it, then that’s another matter.

Looks like we will have to disagree on what a perfect balance means. I’ve taken the college courses, read the books, and I’m stating that “from what I have learned there is no such thing as a perfect balance”. Populations rise and fall as a function of food, disease, predation, etc. What you state of a “balance of 50% prey and 50% predators is WAY WAAAY off. Numbers like that will cause mass death of either the predator and/or the prey. It takes about 10 times as many prey individuals (per pound of predator) to sustain a predator population and yes, these numbers can change but think of it like this – you do not have 5000 lions chasing after 5000 zebra.

You ask me how hard this is to understand.

Really hard! Because it is flat out incorrect if we are to use your numbers.

I know it’s 42 bucks but here:
http://www.springer.com/life+sci/ecology/book/978-0-387-94853-9

You take issue with this question:
“We also have the fact that naturally, the seals will starve to death when there is less food. This brings up a very sensitive point. Is it more humane to kill part of the seal population or let them live and starve?”

And ask, “That’s ridiculous! What are you saying, that we should control all the species on earth!? You know, that arrogant attitude by humans is what led us to the situation the world is in!!
What’s more humane is not to over-hunt, overfish, end farm factories and fur factories, stop animal testing, etc.!”

Please note that I am ASKING, not proposing that bonking animals on the head is the humane thing to do. The point I had hoped to raise was that neither is a pleasant option. Of course the option is to NOT overfish areas and replenish fisheries but that is not a thing we can change in the short term.

The “rules of the system” are this: there are enough resources for predators to predate on or there are not. If the predators dramatically outnumber the prey, DO WE DECIDE TO reduce the numbers of predators? If we do not, WE KNOW that there will be a massive die off of the predators in the next year because this IS what happens.

The hard question is, “is it more humane to control the predator population now to prevent a massive die off in the next season” or not?

Why there is a predator overpopulation is not the question. That’s another question. If there was a natural die off of fish due to red tide, or human overfishing, the problem still remains.

This is what I was trying to get you to see and why I keep asking you to read a book on Bio of populations.

On to sharks, you state this:
“Nonetheless, as you should know, nature (namely animals) know no borders… Everything is connected!”

Yes and no, everything is connected BUT every animal has a range. All plants and animals know borders. In fact, they know these borders using the term “isolation”
Geographic Isolation is one of them, in the ocean, salt and fresh water fish do not mix. Species have a direct affect on their area and the surrounding species. But one thing that defines species and how speciation happens IS that species know borders. This is a major fact in Evolutional Biology.

Ok. You seem to really hate my comment on donating money to the Namibian Department of Fisheries and seem pretty angry at me for suggesting that. But what if you got a bunch of friends together and created a movement to help donate to that? Now, what you seem to miss is that ANY industry is larger and more powerful than you. How do you change something that is like that? I suggest to understand the rules of the game and see how you can change them.

But you’re also pushing your morality on Namibians by your statement. Why are you telling Namibians that they can not eat fish?

You also assume the government of Namibia is corrupt.

This statement of yours angers me, as I have personally met with high ranking members of government and have spent my own money shipping native namibian trees that I grew to Namibia AND delivering computers that I purchased to kids in high school in Northern Namibia (at the request of some of the members of this government you think is corrupt) AND have purchased a preschool in Namibia with a friend of mine.

I’ve met with people there in government and this is not a corrupt government. Do not assume that because Namibia is in Africa that it is corrupt.

Now, as a naive person who asked you to lobby government, this is where you get a group of people together. As a group, you have more power. Look, I AM going to Namibia, I AM spending my bonus money buying computers for poor kids, do you think the government might listen to me – eventually? I am trying to approach the country on their terms. Not everything gets solved right away just because we want it to.

Now, in your statement about one of the companies being involved in the seal trade is Turkish, do you know who they are? At least knowing who they are would be important – not to boycott them – but to know the players in the game, to fully understand all that is involved here.

You also seem pissed off at this statement:
“Africa is still Africa and with sad situations like this, the poor people who need money to feed their kids are the ones doing the deed.”

And you state: “‘They are poor and need to feed their starving children.’ Poor them!!!
If you don’t have enough money to raise children, you shouldn’t have them in the first place!”

Wow. I have no words for that. Just wow. 19 years ago, these people were fighting for their lives trying to get their freedom and this is your response?

Here are the kids you are dissing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15iDw5UZRKE

I recommend you spend a summer internship in Namibia.

Your statement about condom use, while true in certain parts of Africa does not apply in Namibia. I have no idea why you brought it up. We are talking about Namibia.

Now, we have a point that we can agree on – Eco tourism. And here are the shocking words you never thought you would read:

I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU!

And Eco tourism is a HUGE industry in Namibia. It’s great. Here’s another little bit of feel good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73vb-7d0v1I

But it does not stop the seal clubbing.

And I’m really glad your country stopped whaling. If you could have your people please talk to Japan for a me, I’d appreciate it.

Now, while I did present alternatives, I see that you do not think they are viable. I agree that as an individual, they are not. But the more we understand the problem, and all the issues involved, the closer that we can come to a viable solution.

Now, I’m trying to pay attention to schools, deforestation, tourism (yep) and energy in Namibia in my vast amounts of spare time. There are MANY people and organizations more important and powerful than I but I have already helped buy a school, grow and ship trees, speak to a high school and deliver computers to kids in Namibia. All on my own dime and in the past 2 years.

I am not rich.

I am determined.

I hope you are too.

Cheers,
- Alex

I just believe that if someone intends to do something, it’s best to be informed about all the parts of what they are to accomplish.

And AIDS education is big in Namibia, be the people Catholic or not.

I don’t necessarily see animals as inferior in terms of worth but it is we who have the control in many cases, not the animals. So for controlling the situation, we have the upper hand – for good or bad.

And if you are interested in controlling the situation, spend some time detaching emotionally and studying complex systems, be they business or ecosystems. My goal here is for you to understand how to change large systems. Generally, large systems take a long time to change because of many factors. If you actually understand them, you have a much better chance of success.

One thing that bums me out a little (and this is not an insult) is that you have lots of bits of knowledge but where you are trying to apply them is often incorrect and/or inaccurate.

If you have a fact, please try to make sure that you apply it in the proper area. Otherwise, you end up convincing yourself of something that is not true.

For us to change these large complex systems, we need to have our facts straight or people can legitimately claim that we are wrong.

Even though this is generally an emotional issue, it’s often important to temporarily turn your anger off, look at all the parts of the situation, figure out what to do, and then consider turning the angry back on. This is how you get things done.

Thanks for the note. Work calls.

- Alex