by Michael dEstries
Categories: Eats, Film/TV
Tags: .

OK, so it looks like Hugh Jackman may not be going as vegan as we were lead to believe.

The 42-year-old has just started training and bulking up to prepare for his transformation into the buff “Wolverine” — and recently revealed a bit about his eating for the role.

“I’ll be the one with four chicken breasts on my plate,” Hugh joked, speaking with Access Hollywood.

“It’s hard training and a lot of eating. It sounds gluttonous, but it’s really not. It’s just kind of hard,” he continued. “Four chicken breasts at 10:30 in the morning with brown rice and steamed broccoli is not a lot of fun, let me tell you.”

We know for a fact that vegan athelte nutritionist Brendan Brazier has been brought on to help sculpt Jackman — and it’s very likely that the actor is referencing his eating habits from the previous film; for which he said “I ate so many chickens to make this body. If there is a place in hell for people who eat chickens, I have booked a suite bigger than anybody.”

Said Brazier recently in an interview with VegNews:

“There’s a very good chance [he’ll go vegan], and even if he doesn’t completely, a large amount of his diet will be,” he said. “And I think that’s huge, I mean he’s not going to be eating all this chicken; he’s going to build up naturally. What I’m really excited about is that I think it’s going to draw in a whole new audience that would know nothing about it—they wouldn’t even know what vegan is—a lot of teenage kids who love his Wolverine character and want to eat like him.”

About Michael dEstries

Michael has been blogging since 2005 on issues such as sustainability, renewable energy, philanthropy, and healthy living. He regularly contributes to a slew of publications, as well as consulting with companies looking to make an impact using the web and social media. He lives in Ithaca, NY with his family on an apple farm.

View all posts by Michael dEstries →
  • Kaze

    Is scientifically unlikely that we can do without meat proteins completely and have a muscular body as Hugh Jackman. You can not become like Wolverine with 2 broccoli and 1 leaf of lettuce…maybe Hulk but just for skin pigmentation :-)

    • don miguelo

      You did read that article a page down with the Cro-Mags singer, you know, the one who has been vegan for 30 years and is training for a triathalon? The one that references exactly how much protein necessary it takes him to build muscle? Scroll down it’s the one with tattood guy with big muscles, FYI.

      Also, what do you mean by “meat proteins”? I’ll assume you meat protein from animal sources. You do understand protein comes from non-animal sources, correct? It is widely agreed that up to 1.8 grams/kilogram of body mass are needed for active adults engaged in strength training or intense endurance training. Broccoli, as you mentioned, has 7g after it is cooked. A 3-ounce piece of meat has about 21 grams of protein. Having all chicken protein (or proteins from animal sources) over a long enough period of time has been linked to kidney disease and colon cancers. Vegetable proteins, not so much at all.

      If you need an more proof ask vegan bodybuilder Robert Cheeke. Ask record setting weight lifter Jane Black. Ask Mac Danzig, Mixed Martial Arts Champ. Ask “The Biggest Loser” trainer Bob Harper! I’m not trying to be a jerk, but your point doesn’t hold any water, it’s just a safe, stereotyped soundbyte.

      “Don’t get me angry, you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry”. (cue sad piano music as I try to thumb a lift)

      • Michael dEstries

        We know Brazier is involved, so no doubt Hugh’s diet is going to vary a bit more than all chicken and broccoli. You have to applaud the guy for bringing on a vegan nutritionist in the first place.

    • Dave
    • flossygirl

      Course u can get bulked up and BIG muscles without animal protein, do ur homework, theres more protein in nuts and seeds than any corpse u shovel into your gut, some of the best bodybuilders these days happen to be vegan, check them out, and they dont have heart attacks b4 the age of 40 like alot of the meat munching, cholesteral inducing heart attack foods caused!!!!!! The proof is in the (vegan) pudding :)

  • Kaze

    Don Miguelo, read this article: **

    • don miguelo

      Read it, it actually has some good points. I have no idea what the Hallujah diet is and I see that this article is primarily concerned about nursing babies and Pregnant mothers having the right nutrient intake and at the correct levels. I see the author is fighting diets that people are on from misunderstandings or fear, and that’s good. There are some good resources on the web for pregnancy for vegans and their babies, and Veganism is not for everyone, body-chemistry-wise, IMO.

      Further reading though we should consider the source of this article, the website this was posted on, and that it was written 10 years ago. The link you provided goes to to this guy’s website:

      * *

      • herwin

        we defenitely should consider the source of the article !

        “Mercola has received two Warning Letters from the FDA for marketing nutritional products in a manner which violated the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.[3][4] A 2006 BusinessWeek editorial criticized Mercola’s marketing practices as “relying on slick promotion, clever use of information, and scare tactics.” “

  • herwin

    “You can not become like Wolverine with 2 broccoli and 1 leaf of lettuce”
    you are so right, a vegan diet will not make you a wolverine but it COULD make you a Carl Lewis, a McDanzig, or a Cromag singer ! Even the Spartan soldiers who had a repuation for being amongst the tougesht, lived on a pure vegan diet. These are facts.
    It also could get you back in shape like Mike Tyson who is now a vegan or Bill Clinton who is 99% vegan since his heart surgery and cant stop raving about the health benefits of a plant based diet. (and dont ignore the bodybuilders in the previous posts of Don Miguelo)

    last but not least, there are many scientific papers that show that animal proteins have unhealthy effects and vegetable proteins are much more healthier.

    • David

      “Spartans primarily ate pork stew, the “black broth”. According to Plutarch, it was “so much valued that the elderly men fed only upon that, leaving what flesh there was to the younger”. It was famous amongst the Greeks. “Naturally Spartans are the bravest men in the world”, joked a Sybarite, “anyone in his senses would rather die ten thousand times than take his share of such a sorry diet”. It was made with pork, salt, vinegar and blood. The dish was served with maza, figs and cheese sometimes supplemented with game and fish. The 2nd–3rd century author Aelian, claims that Spartan cooks were prohibited from cooking anything other than meat.”

      • herwin

        I clearly say that its the Spartan soldiers that were vegan, not the Spartan civilians like “the elderly men” you refer to.
        The Greek philosopher Plato refers to the Spartan soldiers and their plant based diet in a very positive way in his book “The Republic’), and many other people have written about it, i dont know why you try to distort such a well known fact..

      • herwin

        and can i assume that by your denial of the Spartan Soldiers living on a plant based diet, you DO AGREE with me on the other vegan athletes like Carl Lewis ? :-P

      • David

        You can assume whatever you want. I don’t know anything about the diets of the people you mention, so no I don’t agree with you.

      • David

        Why not cherry pick your quotes.

        “so much valued that the elderly men fed only upon that, leaving what flesh there was to the younger”

        So the younger people were left the meat. Those would be the warriors I think. Plus either way pork broth isn’t very vegan now is it.

        So you quote Plato and I quoted Plutarch, Sybarite and Aelian. I guess there is disagreement. I don’t know why you try and distort such a well known fact.

      • herwin

        @ david. you dont know anything about the diets about the people that i mentioned ? thats hard to believe, specially since there was this magnificant interview with the Gro magnon singer on this very same site where he talks about veganism, since you are an official troll of this site, you hardly can have missed that.
        I will take your word for it (….) that you dont know that legendary sport hero Carl Lewis is a vegan so especially for you, here is a link with an interview of the man himself talking about his vegan diet.
        David, are you getting sick of all these vegans who tell you meat is bad, and even non veggies like Bill Clinton who ditch the meat and cant stop raving about it ? Are you feeling cornered because not only liberals with long hair and a flower in their hair, but even tough guys like Mike Tyson become compassionate vegans ?
        I pity you, you are just a troll who has to pretend he is ignorant of the facts.

      • David

        Sorry herwin, one article at ecorazzi will not convince me that someone is a vegan. Nothing against the site but there have been cases of reports of people being vegans that have been retracted.

        And no I don’t feel cornered. How many non-vegan ‘tough guys’ are there for each vegan ‘tough guy’?

        I think those of us that follow what nature designed us for are still winning.

    • David

      “This suggests that an increase in vegetable protein intake and a decrease in animal protein intake MAY decrease bone loss and the risk of hip fracture. This possibility SHOULD BE COMFIRMED in other prospective studies and tested in a randomized trial.”

      Yes real proof there.

    • flossygirl

      Some of the best bodybuilders in the world are VEGAN nowadays, and they’re not just healthier, they know they’re not gonna drop dead at 40 from high cholesteral, heart disease, from all the fats from animal products …. u only have to look at some of our greatest animals on the planet who are vegan/vegetarian, gorillas, elephants, horses, hippos, cows etc etc., see how much bulk they have, their diet consists of plenty of seeds, nuts, berries and plant-based foods, which are the highest in protein than any other – this correlation says it all in my book x


    Vegans aren’t actually helping animals with their selfish behaviour. Not eating meat means the farmer try to screw every last drop of profit from the animals. This does not lead to better farming or welfare practices. You want to help the animals you need to eat them but only eat organic meat from farmers who care. And don’t start with the we all become vegans rubbish cos that would mean the genocide of domesticated animals. I am sure if they would speak they would say a short happy life is better than no life at all.

    And Hugh only said he MIGHT become vegan as he was promoting a friends book. He admits himself he is a whore and will say and do anything that is required in his job.

    • georgina

      Short. Happy. Life?

      Claire, if animals raised for food could speak they would tell you that it is no carnival to live standing in three feet of manure, or that it actually hurts when a human docks the tail of a cow with no antibiotics or anesthesia or pain killers, that crammed chickens in wire cages cannot even spread their wings, that the wire at the bottom cuts into their feet causing infections, and that it is really sad when a chicken dies and everybody has to step on it because there is simply not enough space and nobody around to pull out the dead body. They would also tell you that it really hurts when a chicken is scalded alive, or terrifying when you hear fellow cows crying in agony after someone attempted to kill them but did not do a good job. They would also say to you that being a male calve is really unfortunate since they are taken away from their mothers 24 hours after being born (and many times dragged to their confined spaces as soon as they drop from their mom’s belly), never get the milk you drink and need for your cheese, and is fed a diet low in iron which will cause him to be anemic.

      Do you really think that is a happy life? Really.

    • John


      If raising an animal to be organic meat is a short, happy life then why do they try to escape both that life and slaughter?

      How is vegan being selfish? If a large part of the population did it animals wouldn’t be confined and killed against their will.

    • dynastygal

      Not breeding an animal is totally different from genocide. And you can’t help animals by killing them.

    • vegan bodybuilder

      Vegans dont eat animals! Thats called saving them and loving them!

      If people really gave a fcuk about animals and their welfare, they wouldnt eat em, have em caged or support products that do.

      • David

        Then I take it you never use a car? Because tires use stearic acid from animals.

    • flossygirl

      How come meat eaters always throw something like that into the equation???? At the end of the day WE choose not to eat our animal friends, nor the by products of, and most of us source our lifestyle around our beliefs, because WE CARE. To call us selfish is outrageous, its you who are eating a murdered being, not giving a shit how much pain or suffering it endured in its sad life. Most of u believe all the hype too about how the animals had a wonderful, quick, pain-free death, and a glorious life roaming free in open fields!! BOLLOCKS!!! The farming industry is EVIL and all about MONEY as usual, I have no sympathy for the farming community, the quicker they veganise the planet the better, it’d be a better place for all, and there would be no famine either – oh, and to those idiots who say “the world would be over-run with cowss, sheep, chickens etc” like I’ve had put to me before, dont be stupid, do u not realise all these animals are artificially bred just to satisify your greedy gut, not hunger, GREED, if mankind stopped messing about with nature the planet might start to recover a little,but until it does, vegans gotta keep spreading the word about how evil and unneccessary corpse munching is, but maybe a bit of divine intervention that all of u who eat meat have GREAT chances of heart disease, diabetes, cancers, high cholestoral, ulcers, obesity etc. which VEGANS just dont get (obv. there’ll be exceptions to this rule) but as a whole, vegans are the healhiest on the planet!!!!!!

      • David

        Do you realize that in many of the poorest countries with the worst food supplies, that the animals that are raised eat food that people can’t eat and graze on land that won’t support other plants? I realize in many countries farm animals eat grains that could be eaten by people, but other countries are different and a switch to vegetarianism in those countries would lead to widespread hunger.

  • Eco Friendly Green Living Tips

    Being a vegan is great for disease prevention

  • Nancy

    I will never understand how people can say being vegan is selfish. Sure, it has AMAZING health benefits but its so much more than that, atleast for me. Also, You say we can only help animals by eating them??? Im sorry, but that statememt is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. While eating organic, free range meat is a slightly better alternative to the slaughter house ecoli burgers filling up the shelves, you are still responsible for the death of that animal. I believe, Unless the animal is sick and being put out of its misery.. there is no humane reason/way to slaughter an animal.
    PS- I had no clue the spartans were vegans. My grandfather was from Spartsi and in all the stories I heard I never knew that. Very cool!!

    • David

      That’s because the Spartans weren’t vegans.

      And although I agree saying we can only help animals by eating them is kind of silly. But the alterantive is the destruction of all the domesticated species. None of them are capable of surviving in the wild. So if they aren’t used for food and clothing they become useless and will become extinct.

      • Allysia K

        And that would be a bad thing because…?

      • herwin

        I stick to the facts and not to your logic because its plain bizzar.
        domesticated cows, domesticated chickens, etc, are not species as you claim. All domesticated animals still are perfectly able to breed with “wild” animals and foster fertile offspring. For instance a dog and a wolf can breed and their offspring would also be able to breed. So if we dont eat chicken anymore the species “chicken” doesnt evaporate from this planet but simply continues to live on in the tropical jungles.
        If we stop eating pigs, the species “pig” doesnt go extinct but continues to live very happily in many many forests of this planet and in an undomesticated natural form.

      • georgina

        David, before animals were raised for food they lived in the wild, and the simple reason they are called “domestic” animals is because humans interacted with them for human consumption. Herwin is right and i have no clue where you get your ideas from, but if humans stop eating pig, and i mean to the last of the pigs confined in gestational crates and wherever Hormel keeps their pigs, then the ones left for instance in the Louisiana swamps will still survive.

        Ever heard of feral animals David?

      • David

        Most domesticated animals are no longer the same species as their wild cousins/progenitors. Hundreds and thousands of years of selective breeding has produced new species. Just because they can cross breed does not make them the same species.

        Ever heard of a mule, georgina?

      • herwin

        Allisia +1. Modern days domesticated farm animals are deformed animals, i dont have a problem if these “species” diapear from the planet.
        And there is the small fact that in fact most domesticated animals who were domesticated for many thousands year, actually already have been whiped out by the insane modern animal factories. Modern day cows, pigs, and chickens didnt exist hunderd years ago. The domesticated farm animals from 100 years ago are now replaced by supercows, superchickens, superpigs who produce enormous quatities of eggs, milk, and meat. These deformed freak animals simply didnt live 100 years ago.
        Same for the agriculture, its the modern day agriculture who is whiping out thousands of subspecies of corn, rice, grains, by replacing them by just a few “super”plants.

      • herwin

        David, you are very right, just because they can breed and produce infertile offspring (like “horse and donkey producing a mule”) doesnt make them the same species. But the fact if animals can breed and produce FERTILE offspring, thats the bottom line of the defenition of “species”.
        In short, domesticated animals can produce fertile offspring with their wild cousins, so they belong to the same species.

      • David

        Well herwin if you were right I would have to agree with you but since you are wrong I guess that makes me right and I guess you need to admit that.

        There are cases of horse and donkey hybrids being fertile. Just like lion/tiger hybrids (Ligers) are often fertile. And there are many other examples.

        Obviously fertility is not a good definition of a species

      • herwin

        David, all male mules and most female mules are infertile. The occasional and rare fertile female mule doesnt make “mules” a fertile animal.
        “a group of individual organisms and capable of breeding and producing fertile offspring”, thsi defention isnt a matter of opinion or something that i just made up, its simply a defenition used by biologists themselves.
        Anyway, most historical domesticated farm animals that you seem to care about, are already whiped out and replaced by the modern animal factories by pigs, cows and chicken that are genetically engineered.
        so your story boils down to “if we stop eating meat, than all these genetically modified freak pigs and cows would die out”. Well, that would be wonderful, i think, and a blessing for these poor animals and for people.

      • David

        Well herwin you may want to read this recent book that discusses the issue. It is called Origin of Species by Charles Darwin. You may have heard of it. Try chapter 8 on Hydrids.

        I did notice you ignored the example of Ligers although you did agree that females mules can be fertile. So how can your biological definition od species be right?

        Of course ‘Biology Online’ has teh following definition;



        noun, singular or plural: species


        (1) The lowest taxonomic rank, and the most basic unit or category of biological classification.

        (2) An individual belonging to a group of organisms (or the entire group itself) having common characteristics and (usually) are capable of mating with one another.”

        Hmmm, usually, that would mean not always. I guess some biologists wouldn’t agree with Dr. Herwin’s definition.

      • vegan bodybuilder

        Spartans were actually vegan as the law of Spartica required people to be fit and lean. Carbon dating of their bones and chemical analysis indicates the alkaline composition of the bones to be the same as plant eaters. So yes,they were vegan/vegetarian no doubt. Science proves it and the spartans ate it.

      • David

        No they weren’t vegans.

        They ate meat and cheese.

  • John

    No disprespect to Brendan Brazier, but the article has it wrong when they call him a nutritionist. Brazier is not an R.D. ( registered dietitian ) and I believe he does not hold any formal credentials. His book does not even have cited references. Again, no disrespect to Brazier, an accomplished athlete. He is simply not a nutritionists the way President Obama is not a physicist.

    • Michael dEstries


      You’re completely right and I’ve edited the article to reflect your comment. Going forward, we’ll be careful not to label Brendan as such.

      • John

        Thanks Michael !

      • herwin

        I dont think he is right. First of all, Obama isnt a physicist, doesnt know about the stuff, doesnt lecture about it, hasnt the legal educational backup, so if he would call himself a physicis, he is in in legal trouble.
        Second of all, the article calls him a nutritionist (rightfully, i will explain later) and right after that mr John interchanges this term with “dietitian”, which is something else, AND which is a protected term, you just cant call somebody a “dietitian” if that person isnt qualified.
        A nutritionist is simply a person who advises other people about nutrition. That person doesnt need any legal educational back up.
        Since mr Brazier is a great and respected athlete whop writes about nutrition, lectures about nutrition to audiences and even at a nutrition course at a respectable university, produces various nutritional snacks / drinks, and seems to have a lot of authority and followers, he rightfully can be called a nutritionist, there is nothing fishy about that, and the term perfectly covers what anybody would assume a nutritionist is.

    • herwin

      Hi John, as far as i know the term “nutritionist” doesn’t mean bogus, it hasn’t any legal status like “doctor”, so anybody can legally call himself “nutritionist”. As a matter of fact, i could perfectly legaly post on this forum and describe myself as a “vegan nutritionist”. Completely bogus of course, but many people without a proper education or degree call themselves “nutritionist”.
      I think “dietist” is a protected or legal term and only with the right credentials one can call yourself “dietist”.

      • John


        You are likely write about the legal status with calling oneself a “nutritionist”. I’m not talking about the legal status.

        I’m talking about what many people might assume in the use of the world “nutritionist”.

      • herwin

        Hi John. In your post you mix simultaneously use “nutritionist” and “dietist”, so i just wanted to make a small comment on the diference about the two.
        On the other hand, his books are about diets and nutrition, + he has made several commercial foods and drinks, he gives lectures about nutrition, and (according to, we can “Join Brendan and other world-renowned authorities as they present cutting-edge information on plant-based nutrition in the first university-accredited course on this subject (=nutrition)”. I ask you, what do they mean with “world renowned authorities” on what subject ? It seems to me that his website gives the strong impression that indeed Brazier is a nutritionist.
        In short, when i see his books, read that he is part of a nutrition course, read his website, etc, i do assume that the guy is a nutritionist..

  • don miguelo

    I think Georgina put it pretty well into a nutshell for ya Claire. I just wanted to add my own 2 cents. Can I just say that before your post, no one was being a holier than thou vegan? Maybe my 1st post was a little edgy, but I even said I was “not trying o be a jerk”, just refuting suspect information. And a more informed discussion occurred after that, so everybody wins. Now, You said that:

    “Vegans aren’t actually helping animals with their selfish behaviour.” That’s an interesting opinion, a little counterintuitive, but ok, I’ll bite. Hey how are vegans selfish by nature?! Ouch!

    “Not eating meat means the farmer try to screw every last drop of profit from the animals. This does not lead to better farming or welfare practices.” Farmer? What’s a farmer? Oh you are talking about small farms? Non-meat eaters are talking about CAFO’s (Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations) primarily. An estimated 54% of livestock in the U.S. are now confined to just 5% of livestock farms. — But ok you did say Vegans specifically. So you’re talking about at most 1.3% of the US population, and 2% of the UK population (from Wikipedia, topic: Veganism). And somehow that very low number forces CAFOs and local farms, for economic survival reasons, to get all crazy with their processing and hurt the animals more? Like they haven’t already extracted and pushed every boundary possible to maximize profits, it’s Vegans that force them over the edge into inhumane practices? That would certainly be ironic, but it’s simply not probable.

    “You want to help the animals you need to eat them but only eat organic meat from farmers who care.” OK eating Organic I can agree with. Pulling that out of your statement was hard because, again, it’s counterintuitive to say that to help something, kill and eat it. Wanna help children? Kill and eat them, that will support the toy industry around them! If you don’t eat kids, people won’t make more and thus will need less toys, which economically hurts the toy industry!! That’s a clearly flawed argument. The term ‘Organic’? That translates into dairy and egg products are required to show that the animals be fed Organic feed, but it doesn’t prohibit cruel treatment such as mutilations without painkillers, intensive confinement or separation of mother and young. But you did say from farmers who care, so if you can find them, that would be slightly better. Yes, vegans think that using animals as a commodity is fundamentaly wrong. So even “better” farming isn’t going to change their minds.

    “And don’t start with the we all become vegans rubbish cos that would mean the genocide of domesticated animals. I am sure if they would speak they would say a short happy life is better than no life at all.” That assumes that Vegans (all 1.3% of them) would have the power tell the country what to do with it’s animals, should this magical event happen in which we all suddenly become vegan. Even if they did, I’m certain they would not allow a genocide as you say, it would be a staggered population reduction and a filtering back to normal circle of life patterns. It’s telling to me that you call it genocide if vegans hypothetically destroyed all livestock animals, but when death happens to a large portion of them on a cyclical basis in reality by CAFOs, that’s just us eating them (and somehow not genocide). As georgina pointed out, what’s so ‘happy’ about their short life, exactly? I personaly think it would be better to die free than to live as a product in a cage for 1/4 my normal life span, but that’s just me.

    “And Hugh only said he MIGHT become vegan as he was promoting a friends book.” True enough. He is trying to provide a healthy example for his kids, rather than appearing solely carnivorous.

    “He admits himself he is a whore and will say and do anything that is required in his job.” I missed that quote but leave Mr. Jackman to defend himself on that. I don’t think he’s exactly Glenn Beck or The Situation about it though, maybe he meant that more tongue in cheek. It’s not like he needs the money, I’m sure.

    • Bencat1000

      excellent reply don miguelo

  • rebecca

    Yay Don Miguelo! You rock. Kickin’ the old cliches and myths down to the curb.
    I really look forward to the day people’s education about food is not tainted by conflicts of interest at the USDA… gosh, I would have gone vegan years earlier had I not grown up with a food pyramid on my classroom wall at school that depicted dairy and meat the top (the dairy section had friggin’ chocolate pudding in it…. yeah, thanks USDA – that is healthy food to point a kid towards. I don’t even think it really qualifies as food.)

    The movie Forks over Knives comes out officially in March and I know it is going to kick a few more doors open. It interviews so many amazing people (Mac Danzig and also Rip Esselstyn, about his Engine 2 Diet and the whole firehouse in Austin that is vegan.)

    No Kaze, our skin isn’t green. But we are more environmentally conscious, which is a nice bonus of the whole vegan thing.

    • don miguelo

      Thanks, Rebecca and Bencat1000! I believe Movements have to evolve and rise above infighting and stereotypes. Veganism and Vegetarianism movements are no exception and I think we’re on our way.

      Last time I checked skin doesn’t turn the color red for all the meat-eaters either! It can turn orange with too many carrots from beta carotene, but that’s a story for another post about The Thing…

  • Southern Fried Scientist

    Claire touched on a critical distinction that was a bit obscured in her original comment but deserves to be expanded on: there is a major difference between personal morality and societal change.

    We touch on this enough in fisheries to give it a name – supply side conservation. Consider this – if everyone who cared deeply and passionately about animal welfare and environmental justice took the stance that you must give up meat completely, then all the social and economic pressure to produce organic, sustainable, free-range, well-loved, or whatever criteria you use to define better farming and husbandry practices would disappear. If this was a large enough subset of the population, then it factory farming would cease to exist, but the reality is, there’s significantly less people willing to totally give up meat consumption then there are demanding meat uncritically. That’s what makes it a personal, moral choice. There’s very little valid argument that can be made against an individual giving up meat.

    Yet, from the standpoint of someone trying to manifest major societal changes, removing the very people who would be putting pressure on the industry to improve it’s practices is the worst solution. Why? Because while most people aren’t willing to give up meat completely, they are willing to demand animals be treated more humanely. Ask yourself this, what reduces suffering more – 10% of people going vegan, or 50% of people reducing their meat consumption by 20% and demanding more humanely treated meat. These numbers are totally made up, but which do you think is a more likely outcome? Now, you could argue that there’s no such thing as humane meat eating, and that’s an unassailable position to hold, but that’s a personal moral choice, and unless you can get everyone to agree with you, it’s not one that has a significant impact beyond your own well-being.

    That may be where the “selfish” comment came from, but there’s nothing wrong with acting in your own self interest on issues. If you think veganism is the right thing for you to do, then kudos and I’ll gladly buy you a wheat beer from the organic brewery up the street, but if you goal is to manifest a major change in your community/country/society, it’s important to realize that telling people they have to go vegan or they’re horrible is not going to work.

    Vegan- and vegitarianism, as a movement to change the way farm animals are treated, is essentially a boycott, and boycotts only work with a critical mass participation. The 1.3% and 2% quoted above are simply not adequate.

    If you want to read more about supply side conservation as it applies to fisheries, see this:

  • don miguelo

    Yes I agree with this, thank you for the bigger picture perspective. Numbers-wise that makes sense, 1 person going vegan has arguably less effect than 1000’s going vegetarian. I also think it’s hard to measure the effect of 1 person’s influence on others (who might go vegan) and the interrelation of dairy and fur/leather industries, but I see your point.

    I wish more vegans were less judgemental than I’ve seen, especially as that is the most strategic way to change things. I’ve said this before, but throwing out meat in your family’s cabinet and preaching at them like they are a**holes isn’t persuading anyone. Intolerance is an unnecessary byproduct of a strong empathetic feeling to injustice, suffering and death. I say we use those feelings of rage, frustration and determination to make real change happen, while realizing we’re all in this together. Like recycling, the majority of people will reduce their meat consumption levels because it’s smart and embraced, not due force. Most people resist force, if pushed far enough.

    There is merit to being vegan though, despite the numbers, because it’s not just a form of boycott. It’s an internal, personal decision that is about so much more than that. I think you see that up there but want to make sure I’m clear as well. That being said, please remember vegans take all kinds of abuse from family, marketing, strangers, bloggers(!), holidays, their own self-esteem, and etc– that it’s hard to stay completely benevolent 24/7. Especially when you’re passionate and learning about it.

    Good post, I’ll end this with a quote from Kung-Fu: “Hahaha, but Grasshopper, is a man’s whole world made up only of himself?” (there’s more than 1 opinion on everything)

    • don miguelo

      “Grasshopper. A man may tell himself many things. But is a man’s universe made only…of himself?” –(correcting my quote, thank you interwebular device).

  • http://VeganStrong(facebook) RAIN

    Whmm I guess I read most of these responses. I think who care really about the Spartans. Yeah they were mighty but also kinda suicidal if you ask me and picking fights and war like characteristics that I don’t think are very noble. So the heck with the Spartans they are history.

    As for animals, yes animals are treated terribly but that is not the issue. The issue is animals are not inanimate objects and should not be used as a resource. So we can talk about abuse and tell people they are wrong or right or whatever but the main fact is like all beings who inhabit this planet I think we have moral responsibility to take care of this planet and all its beings. Animals are not some table that you can throw away when you get tired of using it. They are independent thinking beings who have the basic interests that humans do are they cognitively as advance as us well know but neither are newborns so I don’t think we should be torturing them. They the basic interest in not wanting to be killed… if you disagree with me tell me after you see this video of it looks like the cow did not want to be killed.

    As for health after studying years of nutrition this a very complex subject be we all know that fruits and vegetables carry some of the highest and protective nutrients. If anyone can account for the change in health from eating lots of fruits and vegetables is me. It is absolutely incredible the power of these foods and what they have done for my health. So even if the lab studies said otherwise and the data was all wrong. I know first hand that this shit really works and unless you have lived through this diet for more than two years than you will never know the power of it. I ate SAD diet, I have eaten lean meat organic diet and nothing compares with a whole food high plant based diet, It is awesome the power it has on your health. So that pretty much ends that story.

    The toughest part about veganism is social aspects of it because there are people every day trying to make your life hell because you want to practice your right to protest the use of animals as unimportant things who are worth stomping on, kicking and mutilating… and after all that executing them. I think this treatment is what is radical not non violent living through veganism.

    For non vegans I get it..I understand why you dislike veganism… because it makes you think. You actually have to listen to the fact that your supporting suffering. It challenges the status quo. Most of us as kids love animals but we grow up to ignore certain animals and continue to love others. This is just crazy. I get it because I lived like like an omnivore for 29 years. I too laughed at the concept of being vegy. How could I not do what everyone else was doing, how could I stop eating meat… I would probably die, That meant that my culture, my parents, my friends were all wrong even the government regulators… no way all the people I put trust in. Well guess what shit happens and you notice that life is full of surprises but it does not mean your a bad person or you did this with malice. We just got to look beyond our culture and look at life’s ethical principles and think if what we do everyday is really worth it? Are we in a life where we are in survival where we must get to our next meal or we will die? We know that veganism can be healthy and fun. As vegans we are not here to judge but to let others know that there is a different way to live in which we can still enjoy our food. It is easy. I know because I never went vegetarian. I learned first what I needed to do and then made the switch that easy. I just stopped making excuses for things that I thought were hard to give up. In return I found so many other things that I never saw or tried because I had not venture out of my comfort zone. I guess the biggest flaw that one can do is staying closed and comfortable all the time. I think what inspires me about veganism is wow why are these people so passionate that they are willing to take on the world… there must be something really powerful there. Something that I am missing out on. A view a way of life that goes so much further than me and my happy little life… something bigger than me… now that is powerful.

    My recommendation is to vegans and non vegans to not spend time argueing about who is right and who is wrong but begin to have good dialogue about the issues in a passive manner. Talking about the issues makes breakout from the basic routine to stop and think.

    The unexamined life is not worth living.
    Socrates, in Plato, Dialogues, Apology
    Greek philosopher in Athens (469 BC – 399 BC)

    • David


      Straw men, anecdotal evidence, hypocrisy and hearsay by one Greek philosopher about another Greek philosopher. Quite impressive.

      Maybe you could follow your own advice?

      As to why the issue of the Spartan diet has some import, I think this about sums it up.

      “False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil.”
      Socrates, as quoted by Plato in Phaedo,
      Greek philosopher in Athens (469 BC – 399 BC)

      • http://VeganStrong(facebook) RAIN

        Yeah you got to be real; I agree with that quote… I prefer someone to say shit straight up than to be a fake specially to impress people just to be accepted. I respect David that you enjoy debating with the opposing view and that you have your own opinion. I don’t believe the Spartans were vegetarian in anyway. All the documentaries I have seen they say Spartans ate a soup or the sort with blood.

        At least your engaged in the conversation about these issues.

  • http://VeganStrong(facebook) RAIN

    sorry for the misspellings. I will apologize for the inconvenience… I posted in a hurry. :-)

  • crash

    Wow… amazing. So many of you actually believe that being a vegetarian is in any way healthy or natural.

    I understand not liking filthy, cruel commercial cattle farming, but honestly. Vegetarianism is not healthy. Eat some fish at least, for goodness sake. Your brains need it.

    As far as other concerns and moral/ethical arguments, well… I only have one thing to say: Lierre Keith, “The Vegetarian Myth”

    Says Keith: “I will live in life-altering pain for the rest of my days because I believed and believed and believed in veganism.”